Senator Clinton undermining the path to sanctions on Iran?

This is an issue that has been diaried extensively, and so this diary is on one specific point. Part of Senator Clinton's justification for her vote on the Kyl-Lieberman amendment is the following:

I was in the Senate that day, and was about to vote "no" on this legislation because it had language that President Bush could have used to justify military action against Iran. Working together, Senate Democrats reached across party lines to remove these sections. Only then did I and a lot of other Democrats vote for the resolution in order to pressure Iran by clearing the way for sanctions and pushing the President to get them to the negotiating table. [emphasis added]

full copy of the mailing

The topic of this diary is the specific question of whether the phrase that is emphasized above holds water.

Set-Asides

Set aside the question of whether the President is more interested in the propaganda value of the amendment or the legislative language.

Set aside the question of whether, for this President, negotiation is a formality that has to be got out of the way as expeditiously as possible, on the path to military action.

This diary is not about those points.

This diary is about the Clinton campaign talking point that the purpose of the Kyl-Lieberman Resolution is to open the way for sanctions.


Whose Sanctions?

This is a two-step argument, and the first step is the most straightforward. Obviously, sanctions imposed by the US will have very little impact, because we have had sanctions on Iran for nearly three decades, and so the Iranian economy is not heavily integrated with the US economy, for either financial services or for imports of products they cannot produce themselves.

As John Edwards noted more than half a year ago, in his 2 February interview with Ezra Klein on the subject of Iran:

First, America should be negotiating directly with Iran, which Bush won't do. Second, we need to get our European friends, not just the banking system, but the governments themselves, to help us do two things -- put a group, a system of carrots and sticks on the table. The carrots are, we'll make nuclear fuel available to you, we'll control the cycle, but you can use it for any civilian purpose. Second, an economic package, which I don't think has been seriously proposed up until now. Because there economy is already struggling, and it would be very attractive to them. And then on the flip side, the stick side, to say if you don't do that, there are going to be more serious economic sanctions than you've seen up until now. Now of course we need the Europeans for this, cause they're the ones with the economic relationship with Iran, but the whole purpose of this is number one to get an agreement. Number two, to isolate this radical leader so that the moderates and those within the country who want to see Iran succeed economically, can take advantage of it. [emphases added]

SO that's who has to be on-board with the sanctions ... the US on its own has very little economic leverage on Iran, but working with the Europeans, we can have substantial economic leverage.


Has Kyl-Lieberman Paved The Way for Multilateral Sanctions?

The following are excerpted from the LA Times article, which is behind a registration firewall.

There is a consensus emerging that the EU will have to adopt sanctions:

a consensus is emerging that the European Union will have to adopt its own unilateral sanctions, possibly within the next few weeks, to complement the U.S. action. Europe's support is needed, particularly in the face of Russian and Chinese reluctance, if the administration hopes to force Iran to back down on its controversial uranium enrichment program.

There are two bases for opposition to this. The first is economic:

Bringing on board nations such as Germany and Italy, which together had more than $7 billion in exports to Iran last year, will be difficult. Berlin already saw Russia pick up the contracts German companies abandoned for Iran's Bushehr nuclear power station; now, European companies fear that Russia and China will move in if the EU imposes sanctions outside a U.N. framework.

There are signs, however, that both Germany and Italy are prepared to back whatever consensus is reached within the EU.

... so Germany and Italy are two voices that may be inclined to speak against strong measures, as the EU works toward a consensus.

And what is the second thread of opposition? Well, its this:

But many European analysts said Friday that it would be difficult to hope to engage Tehran in negotiations while attempting to isolate groups such as the Revolutionary Guard, from whose ranks Iranian President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad and many of his colleagues have emerged.

Cornering Iran's military hard-liners could diminish the government's willingness to negotiate and is unlikely to produce the hoped-for wedge between the Revolutionary Guard and the Iranian public, many Europeans fear.

"The idea that there is a clear separation between the population and the Revolutionary Guard is completely false," said Thierry Colville of the Institute for International and Strategic Relations in Paris.

"There has been an eight-year war with 500,000 dead in Iran," he said, referring to the Iran-Iraq war in the 1980s. "It looks like the U.S. has forgotten this war, which legitimized the Guard."

While the call to label the Iranian Revolutionary Guard may be seen in the US conventional wisdom is "showing strength", what it unfortunately displays to European analysts is ignorance of the situation in Iran. Attacking Ahmadinejad because he emerged from the ranks of the Iranian Revolutionary Guard is not weakening his position inside Iran ... its strengthening it.

Now, the purpose of sanctions is supposedly to bring Iran to the bargaining table ... and if Europeans see the labeling of the IRG as a terrorist organization as a roadblock to negotiations, that weakens the case for sanctions amongst the Europeans.

Now, they will probably come to a consensus with some form of sanctions ... but Europeans arguing for stronger "sticks" in a carrot and sticks approach are undermined by efforts to label the Iranian Revolutionary Guard a terrorist organization.


Which is Worse?

I don't know whether Senator Clinton failed to understand that, in reality, it is European sanctions that are the real four by fours in terms of economic and political "sticks" in a "carrots and sticks" approach ... or whether she realized that, and placed a higher priority on the political effort to project an image of "being tough".

I'm more than happy to assume, however, that she is sincere. That means that in this case, she sincerely believes that a unilateral, provocative propaganda move that strengthens the domestic political standing of President Ahmadinejad and erects one more roadblock to negotiations with Iran is the appropriate policy.

From my own personal view, however, I don't want to see the erection of roadblocks to negotiation, because when a nation is pursuing the development of nuclear weapons, I see erecting roadblocks to negotiation as a step toward a military option ... and I agree with John Edwards on that alternative ... none of the following has been made obsolete since his interview of 2 February:

Now that's on the one hand, the flip side of this is what happens if America were to militarily strike Iran? Well you take this unstable, radical leader, and you make him a hero -- that's the first thing that'll happen. The Iranian people will rally around him. The second thing that will happen is they will retaliate. And they have certainly some potential for retaliating here in the United States through some of these terrorist organizations they're close to, but we've got over a hundred thousand people right next door. And most people believe that they have an infrastructure for retaliation inside Iraq. So, that's the second thing that'll happen. And the third thing is there are a lot of analysts who believe that an air strike or a missile strike is not enough to be successful. To be successful we'd actually have to have troops on the ground, and where in the world would they come from? So, to me, this is the path, I don't know if you read Tom Friedman's column either yesterday or the day before?

Ezra: I did not.

It'll be easy to find. Take a look at it, I think it's very smart and he's thinking about this exactly the right way.

Ezra: He says should we do something sensible, that both sides can agree on?

[laughs] Amazing yeah.

Ezra: So, I just want to get it very clear, you think that attacking Iran would be a bad idea?

I think would have very bad consequences.


Disclaimer

I am not sure whether Senator Obama said anything prior to the vote that can be interpreted as opposition. However, while it has been claimed that he "skipped the vote", as I understand it the vote was not originally scheduled for that day, so I see no reason not to take him at his word that he would have also voted against the amended legislation if he had been in the Senate Senate that day, rather than in New Hampshire preparing for that evening's debate.

Its not as if he was hanging around his office and could not be bothered to get to the Senate floor for the vote.


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Senate debate on Iran? (none / 0)

I am not sure whether Senator Obama said anything prior to the vote that can be interpreted as opposition.

Obama wasn't there. The original Kyl amendment was scheduled for debate on Tuesday. It was Tuesday afternoon that Senate Democrats hammered Lieberman on he saber-rattling language in the amendment and killed the voter on the amendment about 5:00 pm when Reid announced there would be no vote that night. When the vote was delayed, there were already major negotiations going on behind the scenes by Lieberman to strip the military language and add Gates' commitment to diplomacy. This continued that evening and Lieberman re-introduced the modified amendment the next morning.

I believe that the poo-bahs on the Armed Services Committtee (Levin, Reed-RI, and Clinton) were the main force behind pressuring Lieberman, especially on adding the Gates' language (Gates is working with Levin, Reed, et al to fight off calls for Iran military action).

Obama missed the entire week. He was in Chicago off the campaign trail on Monday and out campaigning on both Tues. and Wed. He was never there to put in his two-cents worth on either version of the bill.


by hwc on Sun Oct 28, 2007 at 03:39:15 PM EST

Yes ... but was this seen as an ... (2.00 / 3)

... opportunity by Clinton supporters in the Senate to put on over on Obama, which backfired?

But it is magnanimous of your to concede that Obama cannot be held responsible for this botched effort to "work across the aisle" which resulted in the passing of a Resolution with no upside, but only diplomatic downside.


*John Edwards* ... and the JE08 Supporters Blog
by BruceMcF on Sun Oct 28, 2007 at 03:45:47 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Yes ... but was this seen as an ... (none / 0)

opportunity by Clinton supporters in the Senate to put on over on Obama, which backfired?

 - I don't understand what you mean by that .

By the way did you know that the Kyl amendment was a " sense of the senate vote " it was not binding and it is not law . Pelosi is not even going to ever bring it up in the house because it is a vote that has no effect ?

Obama actually cosponsored a binding piece of legislation calling on the state department to label the IRG as a terrorist organization , the same thing he is criticizing Clinton over clumsily now and I don't buy the voting excuse , i tend to side with Joe Biden who criticized Obama for not voting , he said everyone knew the vote was coming up and I tend to take his side.


Educated in a small town Taught to fear Jesus in a small town Used to daydream in that small town Another born romantic that's me.
by lori on Sun Oct 28, 2007 at 04:03:53 PM EST
[ Parent ]

I still don't see why you are focusing on ... (2.00 / 3)

... side issues to the argument in the diary.

The diary is about whether there is any basis for supporting Senator Clinton's vote was in support of a diplomatic resolution to the conflict ... and that means to say, independent of what she thought it was, but in fact.

Taking the position that she is a liar and the Resolution was, in fact, just meaningless political posturing is, of course, one position to take, though I am surprised that you seem to take it here.

However, I am not taking that position in the diary ... the diary considers the question, taking her seriously that her intent was to support diplomacy, whether support for this resolution can be seen as actual support for diplomacy.


*John Edwards* ... and the JE08 Supporters Blog
by BruceMcF on Sun Oct 28, 2007 at 04:18:29 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Odd for you to avoid the issue of the diary ... (2.00 / 2)

... and focus on the disclaimer.


*John Edwards* ... and the JE08 Supporters Blog
by BruceMcF on Sun Oct 28, 2007 at 03:48:07 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Odd for you to avoid the issue of the diary .. (none / 0)

Everyone has an opinon on either side.

However Hillary Clinton's position has always been consistent.

You go into diplomacy with sticks and carrots . The challenge now is to open direct channels of communication with the iranians . There has to be both a multi lateral channel and a unilateral channel.


Educated in a small town Taught to fear Jesus in a small town Used to daydream in that small town Another born romantic that's me.
by lori on Sun Oct 28, 2007 at 04:10:04 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Yes, but this is neither stick nor carrot. (2.00 / 3)

It is, on the one hand, an additional obstacle to negotiation and, on the other hand, not a support for gaining stronger or (still better), better thought out sanctions from the Europeans.

After all, it is clear that unilateral sanctions from the US alone are nothing but posturing, and if we pursue a supposed diplomatic option that is doomed to fail, that is support for the hawks that are pushing for military strikes.


*John Edwards* ... and the JE08 Supporters Blog
by BruceMcF on Sun Oct 28, 2007 at 04:21:31 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Senator Clinton undermining the path to sancti (none / 0)

David Ignatius makes Clinton's point in his column The Iran Trap today:

The Bush administration's announcement last week of sanctions against the Revolutionary Guard was America's version of asymmetric warfare. By using its control of global finance to exacerbate the split in Iranian politics, the United States is wielding its strongest weapon to challenge its adversary at the weakest spot.

The split he refers to is between the more radical Ahmadinejad, who is aligned with the militant al-Quds Force, and Rafsanjani, the relatively moderate former Iranian president. Rafsanjani believes he can beat the unpopular Ahmadinejad, and targeted sanctions against al-Quds weaken Ahmadinejad further. There is no question that Ahmadinejad and the other al-Quds alumni are the Iranian hard liners, and anyone who has been watching Iranian elections closely, or following Iranian opinion knows that a large portion of the Iranian public opposes those hard liners. Targeted sanctions at the group who's purpose is asymmetric warfare is not going to have a big rally round the flag effect (especially since Ahmadinejad's nuclear provocations have further damaged his position in Iran) regardless of what some Europeans think.


by souvarine on Sun Oct 28, 2007 at 04:08:22 PM EST

Except the US does not control global finance. (2.00 / 4)

The effort to use our control of global finance is a dangerous endeavor, given the risk of revealing that we have less control of global finance than we like to think.

Indeed, this comment gets right to the beginning of the diary ... given that we have had sanctions on Iran for a long time, their economy is not strongly integrated with ours, and unilateral US sanctions will therefore have little impact on Iran ... except, of course, if their failure is used as a further argument in favor of military strikes.


*John Edwards* ... and the JE08 Supporters Blog
by BruceMcF on Sun Oct 28, 2007 at 04:24:59 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Except the US does not control global finance. (2.00 / 1)

Not only that, our real 'great game' opponents for the world's energy resources have not failed to move in to the space we vacate every time we prohibit financial and commercial dealings with Iran.  These sanctions have hurt us and consistently undermined our leverage, why would we now seek to do more of the same, but aggressively?  We are just pissing everyone off for no benefit, including Germany.


by Shaun Appleby on Sun Oct 28, 2007 at 05:24:44 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Senator Clinton undermining the path to sancti (1.00 / 1)

THE CLINTONS ARE A PATHOLOGICAL LIARS.
I quite sure they are not aware of it. Which is worse!

Why do you think, "50% of voters won't vote for Hillary Clinton UNDER ANY CIRCUMSTANCES" ?


by win on Sun Oct 28, 2007 at 04:26:17 PM EST
[ Parent ]

I think that is outrageous - shameful (none / 0)

Most of the people that visit this site are Democrats.  The site says that it wants to promote Democratic polices and canidates.  Calling a popular and successful Democratic President, and his wife, "PATHOLOGICAL LIARS" doesn't wash.   By the way, please clarify, do you lump Chelsea in as a liar too.  Just asking.

At the end of the day attacks like your hurt the Democratic Party as a whole just as much as they hurt anyone candidate.


by dpANDREWS on Mon Oct 29, 2007 at 03:31:00 PM EST
[ Parent ]

David Ignatius is a great stenographer (2.00 / 1)

Reporter/analyst/thinker? Not so much.

I have long since stopped listening to anything that guy has to say.


John McCain: 100 years in Iraq "would be fine with me."
by desmoinesdem on Sun Oct 28, 2007 at 04:38:07 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Senator Clinton undermining the path to sancti (2.00 / 1)

Nonsense.  The notion that this move speaks to some highly touted division within the Iranian assembly or electorate is ridiculous.  It rallies even moderate Iranians to Ahmadinejad's position, such as it is.  Don't forget the Iranian parliament passed a counter-resolution within days.

The public can oppose the hard-liners all they want,  you will not see a moderate parliament in Iran so long as all Majlis candidates and all legislation from the assembly must be approved by the Council of Guardians.  We need to cease projecting our insular political world view if we truly seek a diplomatic resolution with Iran.


by Shaun Appleby on Sun Oct 28, 2007 at 05:10:16 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Senator Clinton undermining the path to sancti (2.00 / 2)

There is also the point that I read somewhere ... oh, wait, it was in my diary:

"The idea that there is a clear separation between the population and the Revolutionary Guard is completely false," said Thierry Colville of the Institute for International and Strategic Relations in Paris.

"There has been an eight-year war with 500,000 dead in Iran," he said, referring to the Iran-Iraq war in the 1980s. "It looks like the U.S. has forgotten this war, which legitimized the Guard."

Allowing President Ahmadinejad to highlight his background on the IRG as being under attack supports his political position. Consider the craven behavior of the US Democrats when faced with a "soft on terrorism" threat, and then bear in mind 500,000 dead in the Iran-Iraq war in the 80's. How is demonizing the IRG in the US going to support Iranian moderates in Iran?

Oh, yeah, it won't, it'll undermine them.


*John Edwards* ... and the JE08 Supporters Blog
by BruceMcF on Sun Oct 28, 2007 at 06:47:38 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Iranian moderates (none / 0)

I've spoken against Senator Clinton's vote in favor of Kyl/Lieberman, but honestly, can anyone say what action on our part would enhance the standing of Ahmadenijad's domestic opponents?  That seems to me a more important question than what would persuade the Europeans to deploy a meaningful sanctions package, though that question needs answering too.


Take out the trash. Down with Saxby Chambliss!
by CLLGADEM on Sun Oct 28, 2007 at 04:35:48 PM EST

Re: Iranian moderates (none / 0)

Basically nothing with which the Assembly of Experts or the Council of Guardians disagrees.  Iran is a theocracy with democratic trappings.  The president is the gate-keeper to the theologians and for the moment they have selected a fire-brand ideologue.  The notion that the Iranian people would seek a moderate assembly fails to understand the workings of the Iranian government.  In my opinion the question what would persuade the Europeans to deploy a meaningful sanctions package is arguably one of the correct ones.  What would get the Russians on our side is even better.


by Shaun Appleby on Sun Oct 28, 2007 at 05:20:47 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Increase the standing, or increase the ... (none / 0)

... political clout?

An effective package of incentives and sanctions, including substantial economic aid, will give the more moderate (its tricky working out which political actors within the Iranian system can be called moderate in an absolute sense, so I'm not even going to try) somewhere to stand in the internal fight over the appropriate response.


*John Edwards* ... and the JE08 Supporters Blog
by BruceMcF on Sun Oct 28, 2007 at 06:50:44 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Increase the standing, or increase the ... (none / 0)

Either.  If nothing else, we need to turn the general public in Iran away from the theologians.  An actor will follow if we can do that (assuming supply and demand rules apply to politics as well).  

As for bringing Russia on board, that will not happen, and even if we could manage it, Putin's price would be our further complicity in his power consolidation.  That seems too high a price, especially after el Baradei has just debunked many of the Bush administration claims about Iran's nuclear wapons program.  I saw that on CBS last night, and will try to post a link.


Take out the trash. Down with Saxby Chambliss!
by CLLGADEM on Mon Oct 29, 2007 at 06:49:05 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Increase the standing, or increase the ... (none / 0)

Putin's price may be cheaper than that.  They have a lot of irons in the fire at the moment.


by Shaun Appleby on Mon Oct 29, 2007 at 07:39:43 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Increase the standing, or increase the ... (none / 0)

I could go on about Uncle Vlad, but that would be off-topic.  Suffice it to say, here is a link, not quite the one I wanted, but the final two paragraphs are key.

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2007/09/1 7/world/main3267903.shtml?source+search_ story


Take out the trash. Down with Saxby Chambliss!
by CLLGADEM on Tue Oct 30, 2007 at 06:17:11 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Its not a matter of bringing Putin on board ... (none / 0)

... its a matter of recognizing that Putin will be pulling the other way as we try to work with the EU ... the administration having put ourselves down in Putin's league in terms of moral authority has not helped, but that problem is exacerbated when the Senate passes a resolution like this with such a big majority.


*John Edwards* ... and the JE08 Supporters Blog
by BruceMcF on Mon Oct 29, 2007 at 09:10:42 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Why would anyone trust Clinton on issues of war? (2.00 / 1)

Clinton states she will end the war in Iraq but has not developed an actual plan to do so.  Instead, Clinton claims she will rely on the advice of military and political advisers to formulate a plan after she becomes President.  

For advice on Iraq presently, Clinton relies upon persons that believe it was right for the U.S. to invade, the war has gone wrong because of poor leadership by the Bush Administration, and they support the surge and advocate for the U.S. intervention in Iraq to continue for at least another decade.  When directly questioned, Clinton refuses to commit to bringing all U.S. troops home by 2013.  

For sources and references see http://www.mydd.com/story/2007/10/26/213 033/92


Bill Richardson: "Get out now. Get all our troops out now. It is the only right and responsible choice."
by Stephen Cassidy on Sun Oct 28, 2007 at 04:43:08 PM EST

blah blah blah (none / 0)

mydd.com is now overrun by Edwards supporters.

Every stupid diary is recommended.  


by FilbertSF on Sun Oct 28, 2007 at 06:01:46 PM EST

Re: blah blah blah (none / 0)

And if this post was a diary, it would recommended by Edwards supporters, too.  Actually, if you added "Edwards chocolate cookie" the recommendation will climb through the roof.


by FilbertSF on Sun Oct 28, 2007 at 06:21:25 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: blah blah blah (none / 0)

And good ones too, like this one, which has more to do with sane US foreign policy than the Edwards campaign.


by Shaun Appleby on Sun Oct 28, 2007 at 06:24:34 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: blah blah blah (none / 0)

John Edwards was a U.S. Senator.  His foreign policy as a Senator was co-sponsoring the Iraq War Resolution.  

It was only when he ran as VP in 2004 -- when all hell had broken loose in Iraq -- was it convenient for him to speak against it

When he had the power to determine the fate of America, he used that power to help George Bush into war.  

In 2002, John Edwards persuaded the American people why we needed to go into Iraq:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U2JfndMus fc


by FilbertSF on Sun Oct 28, 2007 at 06:37:25 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: blah blah blah (none / 0)

I'm not an Edwards supporter.  You are using ad hominem attack on Edwards to refute the points made in the diary about sanctions against Iran?  The diarist wins by default.


by Shaun Appleby on Sun Oct 28, 2007 at 06:41:54 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: blah blah blah (none / 0)

ad hominem attack in the form of linking you to John Edwards' video announcing his co-sponsorship of the Iraq War resolution?

This goes to the very heart of Edwards challenge that Hillary wants us to go to war with Iran.

Edwards is the man who co-sponsored the war we are in right now?  What judgment does he have after his own blunder?


by FilbertSF on Sun Oct 28, 2007 at 06:47:13 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Judgement? (none / 0)

Less than Obama's and more than Hillary's, apparently.


by Shaun Appleby on Sun Oct 28, 2007 at 06:51:06 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Judgement? (none / 0)

He co-sponsored the Resolution using the same talking points and scare tactics Bushco did to justify the war.

"My position is clear.  The time has come to eliminate the threat posed by Saddam's WMD... threats to U.S. and our allies.  Everyday he's getting closer to his goal of nuclear capabilities."

If you didn't watch the video, you'd think Bush was talking in 2003!


by FilbertSF on Sun Oct 28, 2007 at 06:58:34 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Judgement? (none / 0)

Well, he has more credibility on this exact point than Hillary, who has refused to admit her vote was a mistake.  Where are you headed with this?  It indicts your own candidate as well, only worse.


by Shaun Appleby on Sun Oct 28, 2007 at 07:00:01 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Judgement? (none / 0)

Oh.  No.  I'm sorry.  I only co-sponsored the Iraq War Resolution.

I'm sure if I just apologize my little supporters will forget everything I did to contribute to the mess we are in.

Blame Hillary!  It's all her fault!


by FilbertSF on Sun Oct 28, 2007 at 07:02:46 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Judgement? (2.00 / 1)

C'mon, you can surely see the difference between Edwards' and Hillary's positions on their AUMF votes.  I am not particularly impressed with either of them myself but clearly Edwards has acknowledged his mistake.  And Hillary?


by Shaun Appleby on Sun Oct 28, 2007 at 07:05:31 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Judgement? (none / 0)

John Edwards warhawk stance.  

February 6, 2003: We must militarily disarm Iraq

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=to2Pc3oCM V4

And Edwards supporter will continue to say:

"Blame Hillary!  It's all her fault.  Hers and hers alone!"


by FilbertSF on Sun Oct 28, 2007 at 07:11:44 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Judgement? (none / 0)

You're not convincing anyone.


by adamterando on Sun Oct 28, 2007 at 08:33:17 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Judgement? (2.00 / 1)

That's the problem. Edwards says "sorry" it was a "mistake" and everyone believes him. Yet when he was adamant to going to war with Iraq to the point of cosponsoring legislation with Lieberman it makes you wonder what did he see that made him support military action. Still, it is Clinton's fault because she did not say "sorry" or it was a "mistake". You completely ignore the actions of the Senator. Edwards is a smart politician, which is why used said "sorry" for political reasons and is using Clinton's vote for the Kyl Amendment for political reasons. Why did he change his tune only 7 months into the war when the 2004 presidential election was about to begin? When was the last time we won a war in 7 months? Why did he cosponsor the legislation with Liberman to go to war if he is now against the war? Was it because the war turned into a heartache for Americans, or was it for political reasons?


Restore America's Strength.
by RJEvans on Sun Oct 28, 2007 at 11:14:45 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Judgement? (none / 0)

You summed it up perfectly, RJ.

I don't understand why Edwards' apology absolves him from the Iraq War when he was hawkish about invading Iraq.  He used the same language that Bush did.

And why the blame is placed on Hillary.  She's just one vote, as is Edwards.

He's now the anti-war candidate even though it was his Iraq War Resolution that led us into

I was stunned by the YouTube videos because I didn't know the extent Edwards was involved in bringing us to war.

As for Obama, he's voted for war funding ever since he got into the Senate.  


by FilbertSF on Sun Oct 28, 2007 at 11:32:14 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Judgement? (none / 0)

I should say this, the Iraq Resolution came from the House, not the Senate, however, Lieberman's bill contained almost the exact same language as the one put forth by the Speaker, so the question remains. What did Edwards see to make him cosponsor a bill to authorize an attack on Iraq and why did he change his mind on 7 months into the war when the 2004 presidential race was about to ramp up.


Restore America's Strength.
by RJEvans on Mon Oct 29, 2007 at 12:11:05 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Judgement? (none / 0)

little supporters

That's ad hominem.

ad hominem attack in the form of linking you to John Edwards' video announcing his co-sponsorship of the Iraq War resolution?

This goes to the very heart of Edwards challenge that Hillary wants us to go to war with Iran.

No, that is not Edwards argument. His argument is that Bush (not Clinton) is likely to take premature, unwarranted military action against Iran, and therefore it's unwise, in Edwards view, for Congress to "give him an inch." Edwards is well aware of his own (and his Senate collegues') responsibility in doing just that with regard to Iraq. He makes no defense of it, indeed he says plainly he himself made a terrible mistake. Clearly no one in Congress decided to shut down the U.N. inspections and launch the invasion - that was Bush's (and Blair's) decision - but Congress certainly "gave him an inch."  Edwards is saying they were wrong to do that then, and wrong if they do it again now.

Edwards is the man who co-sponsored the war we are in right now?  What judgment does he have after his own blunder?

George W. Bush is a person who makes misjudgments, and seems neither to regret them nor to learn from them.

Thankfully, not everyone is exactly like our current president.  


Keep it short. DemocraticShortList.com
by Rob in Vermont on Sun Oct 28, 2007 at 08:37:19 PM EST
[ Parent ]

I don't see how Edwards vote for ... (none / 0)

... the IWR resolution or vote against funding the invasion of Iraq affects the validity or otherwise of the argument in the diary.


*John Edwards* ... and the JE08 Supporters Blog
by BruceMcF on Sun Oct 28, 2007 at 06:51:56 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Yeah, I noted that ... its a bit bizarre ... (none / 0)

... just a couple of weeks ago it was a melange of Edwards and Obama diaries.

Maybe its the crossposting of the Edwards Evening News ... regular, positive coverage like that tends to attract supporters of a candidate.


*John Edwards* ... and the JE08 Supporters Blog
by BruceMcF on Sun Oct 28, 2007 at 06:54:52 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Yeah, I noted that ... its a bit bizarre ... (none / 0)

Your candidate, John Edwards, when he was a U.S. Senator who had the power to influence foreign policy, was a war hawk who mimicked Bushco's language to bring us to war.

In 2003, as the casualty rose, he stood on the Senate floor and pleaded for us to remain in Iraq.  That is the real John Edwards.  John Edwards, a guy with a Conservative Democrat voting record, is a warhawk.


by FilbertSF on Sun Oct 28, 2007 at 07:01:29 PM EST
[ Parent ]

As opposed to? (none / 0)

The only one in the race who has been in the Congress at or after that time that has not voted to authorize or fund the war is Dennis Kucinich.

Now, if you are going to argue that you cannot support John Edwards based on his position at the time of the IWR, and then proceed to say that you have to support DK instead, that's consistent.

Opposing John Edwards because of what he did and said in 2003 and then supporting people who voted for funding the occupation in 2005 and 2006, on the other hand, is shifting the standard based on the candidate.


*John Edwards* ... and the JE08 Supporters Blog
by BruceMcF on Sun Oct 28, 2007 at 07:14:26 PM EST
[ Parent ]

this diary is quite substantive (1.00 / 1)

I think your complaint is unwarranted.

The Clintonistas get their share of diaries on the rec list too.


John McCain: 100 years in Iraq "would be fine with me."
by desmoinesdem on Sun Oct 28, 2007 at 07:22:14 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: this diary is quite substantive (none / 0)

Yeah.  Sure.  Of course.  Where did I get that notion Edwards supporters are overrunning this site?  Where did I get the notion that every single pro-Edwards diary is recommended?

RECOMMENDED DIARIES:

Senator Clinton
undermining the path to sanctions on Iran?
by BruceMcF
36 comments

The Promise of John Edwards; his compact with America
by KaritaAllegheny
3 comments

Edwards Opposes Peru Free Trade Deal: Trade Policies Must Benefit Workers-Not Just Corporate Profits
by NCDemAmy
17 comments (13 new)

Obama Gets Tough, Over Social Security Reform?
by souvarine
38 comments (14 new)

Edwards says Clinton "aided and abetted" Bush and Cheney's "march to war"
by TomP


by FilbertSF on Sun Oct 28, 2007 at 07:33:17 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Clinton supporters recommend (none / 0)

everything by areyouready, even though those diaries rarely have any substance. Diaries by bookgrl, alegre and georgep also tend to make the rec list here.


John McCain: 100 years in Iraq "would be fine with me."
by desmoinesdem on Tue Oct 30, 2007 at 07:08:47 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Clinton supporters recommend (none / 0)

I can't believe you would deny that this place is now overrun with Edwards supporters.

God, just be honest about it.  It's not a big deal.  I'm just pointing out the obvious.


by FilbertSF on Tue Oct 30, 2007 at 12:36:58 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: this diary is quite substantive (none / 0)

Clintonistas?


by dblhelix on Sun Oct 28, 2007 at 07:49:36 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Clintonistas is a offensive rightwing smear (none / 0)

It is unacceptable on a site that promotes Democrats and Democratic policies and candidates.  The term was coined during Bill Clinton's Presidency by his enemies as a way to attack him and his administration, and by association his family.

Totally unacceptabe here.  It would be like some pulling a Romney or Fox News and playing games with another candidates name.  It shouldn't be done.


by dpANDREWS on Mon Oct 29, 2007 at 03:28:08 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Clintonistas is a offensive rightwing smear (none / 0)

Good call. Thanks for the post. You guys bash your own way too much nad I've stopped going to some sites becasue of that.


by spirowasright on Mon Oct 29, 2007 at 06:31:44 PM EST
[ Parent ]

you've changed since the days (none / 0)

you used to write derisively about "Barry Obama."


John McCain: 100 years in Iraq "would be fine with me."
by desmoinesdem on Tue Oct 30, 2007 at 07:07:03 AM EST
[ Parent ]

True (none / 0)

But that is a bit different.

Barry Obama is not abusive.  It is meant more as competitive ribbing.  I think it started on Wonkette - which I don't view as Republican leaning or rightwing at all.

At any rate I consider Barry to be somewhat good natured.  It is what he once called himself.  It would be like someone referring to Clinton as 'Hil' instead of using her full name.  

I was referring in my post to the other name that Republicans have thrown out in talk shows and speeches and how they makes their "oops" mistake and confuse with another famous name.   That is crap.


by dpANDREWS on Tue Oct 30, 2007 at 09:15:03 AM EST
[ Parent ]

And the Head of the IAEA? His View (2.00 / 1)

Well, if Kyl/Lieberman was an entrée to diplomacy it has arguably had the opposite affect.  At least according to the head of the IAEA, who you might think had a valid opinion on this point:


WASHINGTON (AP) -- The head of the U.N. nuclear watchdog said Sunday he had no evidence Iran was working actively to build nuclear weapons and expressed concern that escalating rhetoric from the U.S. could bring disaster.

"We have information that there has been maybe some studies about possible weaponization," said Mohamed ElBaradei, who leads the International Atomic Energy Agency. "That's why we have said that we cannot give Iran a pass right now, because there is still a lot of question marks."

"But have we seen Iran having the nuclear material that can readily be used into a weapon? No. Have we seen an active weaponization program? No." Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice accused Iran this month of "lying" about the aim of its nuclear program. She said there is no doubt Tehran wants the capability to produce nuclear weapons and has deceived the IAEA about its intentions.

Vice President Dick Cheney has raised the prospect of "serious consequences" if Iran were found to be working toward developing a nuclear weapon. Last week, the Bush administration announced harsh penalties against the Iranian military and state-owned banking systems in hopes of raising pressure on the world financial system to cut ties with Tehran.

ElBaradei said he was worried about the growing rhetoric from the U.S., which he noted focused on Iran's alleged intentions to build a nuclear weapon rather than evidence the country was actively doing so. If there is actual evidence, ElBaradei said he would welcome seeing it.

USA Today(AP) - 28 Oct 07

Wow, sounds like the 'diplomatic' process has alienated somebody at the UN already who we should hopefully consider to be on our team.  How is this?  Kyl/Lieberman was an act of diplomatic aggression?  Sounds like that is the general narrative.


by Shaun Appleby on Sun Oct 28, 2007 at 08:40:26 PM EST

Obama dodges tough votes (none / 0)

Then plays politics over the votes that he skips.  That is just sleazy.


by dpANDREWS on Sun Oct 28, 2007 at 08:53:52 PM EST

I don't know if that is the case ... (2.00 / 2)

... but it certainly does not apply to this issue, so I'm not going to worry about arguing the point regarding other votes.

There was an assurance on the record from the Majority Leader that the Kyl-Lieberman Resolution would not come up to vote the following day, and then it did. Saying that this was a "missed vote" is, of course, accurate, but saying that this was a "skipped vote" would be untrue.


*John Edwards* ... and the JE08 Supporters Blog
by BruceMcF on Mon Oct 29, 2007 at 09:15:37 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: (none / 0)

"Now, if you are going to argue that you cannot support John Edwards based on his position at the time of the IWR, and then proceed to say that you have to support DK instead, that's consistent."

FilbertSF was not saying that that was the reason he/she was not supporting Edwards he was simply pointing out your inconsistencies. That what you guys don't understand! Edwards was a bigger hawk than Hillary from the start. He didn't change his position until the it was politically convienent! He is a FRAUD!!!!

If Hillary had apologized right after the 2004 election, how do you think you would have reacted? Im pretty sure you and everyone else would have said the same thing, "she's just pandering to the far-left, to get the nom..." Why is it different for John. Even if Hillary had apologized now you guys would say the same thing! You guys are be biased and are holding a double standard for her! I just wish you had seen it for what it was when he did it!

JOHN EDWARDS IS THE MITT ROMNEY OF THE DEMOCRATIC PARTY! PANDERER AND FLIP-FLOPPER!


by boxer4hrc on Mon Oct 29, 2007 at 02:32:19 PM EST


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